Brian Cowen is proposing to embrace people of Irish descent in a move that could redefine our nation.
In New York last week, Brian Cowen made a significant speech. Although not much detail was reported, its content will have more impact on Ireland than anything he or Nicolas Sarkozy might have said at their much-hyped meeting.
In his address at the Irish consulate, Cowen proved that he is a modern thinker, a politician in touch with global realities, who is contemplating a post-nationalist Ireland. He spoke about the Irish tribe. He said that he would redefine the relationship Ireland has with the US, and in particular with Irish America.
According to a report in the Irish Echo, Cowen articulated a novel idea, which has the capacity to change Ireland’s relationship with the world, ‘‘acknowledging everyone who had worked hard in the Irish community, whether they were Irish-born, their parents were born in Ireland, or those who simply had a sense of being Irish’’. Cowen said that these were partnerships that were meaningful for those with a deep, serious kinship.
The Taoiseach announced that he was undertaking a full review of Ireland’s relationship with the USA. He stated: ‘‘This work will also prove invaluable in informing wider initiatives to harness the power of the Irish diaspora across the world.”
He continued: ‘‘We have to recognise these new realities, recognise the new challenges, today and tomorrow,” adding that the Irish had entered a new era globally and that the potential of the diaspora was a resource that had to be tapped.
This is a significant move by the Taoiseach because it reveals that the Irish state has finally recognised that, in a globally interconnected world, the country with the best network has a huge comparative advantage.
The world is undergoing a communication revolution that will obliterate national power as we have come to know it. It will mean that a nation’s message becomes blurred, and the power of being sociable – sometimes in the past portrayed as a weakness, and the antithesis to the stoicism and aloofness of power – will dominate.
The world has 1.4 billion plugged-in internet users and that number is growing by 250million a year. There are three billion mobile phones in the world, with another billion coming in the next three years. Ten hours of video are being uploaded onto YouTube every minute of every day. This connectivity revolution, where the best salespeople for ideas will be individuals playing a giant game of ‘pass it on’, is ideally suited to dramatic initiatives, and the diaspora is a natural sales force for the country.
The winners will be those countries which have access to the best brains, are open to ideas and which allow individuals to travel freely. As Cowen is proposing much freer travel between Ireland and America, presumably for people of Irish heritage, we could see our potential workforce increase from four million to 70 million.
These people would not have to move here, although some undoubtedly would, but by telling them that Ireland is open to them and vice-versa, you create the network necessary to compete.
If we just think about the Irish in America, the commercial power of the diaspora is irrefutable. Of the 34 million Irish-Americans registered, in the 2005 census, a third have bachelors degrees or higher. That’s over 11 million people.
More than 30 million Irish Americans have a high school diploma. As 91 per cent of the total Irish-American population has completed secondary education, our American cousins are considerably better educated than us. Even today, only seven out of ten Irish children finish the Leaving Cert.
Some 40 per cent of Irish Americans are either professionals or work in management, and 72 per cent are home owners.
The average income of an Irish-American household is $53,000. This puts them at the top of the ethnic league after the Jews, in terms of education, income and social class. Close to 900,000 English speaking Irish-Americans speak a second language. Their average age is 37, but there are over 10million Irish-Americans under 18.
This is an extraordinary reservoir of talent. The Irish-Americans define themselves as Irish; and while they are American, they have a deep affection for, and affiliation to, this country.
The 3.8 million Irish Canadians, the 1.9 million Irish Australians and the half-million Irish Argentines have similar profiles in terms of education and income.
By giving them a stake in their country of origin, Ireland could easily offer companies a most attractive package, a European country with a truly global workforce whose human capital is guaranteed and whose networks are solid.
Embracing a worldwide tribe who are not bound by geography or political boundaries but are unified by culture, familial history and shared experiences, would be a post-nationalist project – the very essence of globalisation. Last Monday, in contrast, Sarkozy seemed like a dinosaur — a Kissngerian hangover from the era of nation states, defined by geography, where the state defined the citizen’s relationship with the world.
Sarkozy was like a ‘top-down’ relic in a ‘bottom-up’ world, talking about relationships between states and using expression like ‘‘vital national interests’’.
He spoke of European visions, as if we were still in the Cold War. This is one of the problems with the EU. It is dominated by people whose view of the world has not changed since the Treaty of Versailles and who appear to see power as something for countries to fight over. But power has been disseminated. The small are rich, the big are poor. Those with soft power are thriving, those countries with traditional hard power are faltering.
A global diaspora, plugged in and bound by something much more important than money, is possibly the best asset any country could dream of – and we have it. The Taoiseach has triggered something powerful. Let’s plough on.
David, This is very interesting – It may have been obvious to others, but you have just opened my eyes to a massive opportunity and marketplace. Now I need to get my thinking cap on!! But also the government have an opportunity to be very innovative and put this collective virtual brain power to work on numerous research initiatives and open source projects that would ultimately be targeted for the benefit of Ireland and our challenges. Can the government do it? Will they be able to be flexible to the new agile ways of working in a Web2.0 / Enterprise… Read more »
Great to hear the Taoiseach is ‘open’ to making changes in hopefully supporting an ‘urgent’ focus to increase the volume of Irish based ‘internationally’ traded services businesses. David , the ‘power’ of the Irish Diaspora is something you have spoken about the opportunity for a while. Does anyone know who’s doing something about it, is there a ‘private’ company sourcing businesses in the US now ? Despite the IDA’s best efforts and profile in corporate America we had about 30 projects from new US companies setting up in Ireland last year. Assuming like all IDA client companies 2/3’s are US… Read more »
David makes the point: “The world is undergoing a communication revolution that will obliterate national power as we have come to know it. It will mean that a nation’s message becomes blurred, and the power of being sociable – sometimes in the past portrayed as a weakness, and the antithesis to the stoicism and aloofness of power – will dominate.” However I’m not convinced that Blarney is easily conveyed on the web, –even with broadband. Sharp arguments lead to profitable businesses. Nor am I convinced that Cowen’s attempt to “harness the power of the Irish diaspora across the world.” will… Read more »
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Hi , I have always admired your stance on economic issues. I have been mostly in agreement with your main philosphical and economic arguments. I did feel that your negativity on the economic side of things was a little premature but I also knew that you would eventually be proven right – and the longer the easy credit boom continued the more exaggerated the necessary correction will be. Your column in sbp today , and the toaiseach’s hintings at adopting your suggestion to leverage/strengthen Ireland’s diaspora is most welcome. Given the recent result in the referendum , and the weighting… Read more »
I think Cowan was reaching out allright. Reaching out to cover his own ass.
Personally I find this pie in the sky stuff. There is absolutely no indication that vast swathes of people with tenuous ancestral links to this island would be willing to either up sticks and move here or stay home and somehow move here in spirit. What about their loyalty to the place they’re actually from? Our diaspora are not a tribe no matter how much we like to pretend they might be. All they have in common is the entirely superficial – unlike their deep roots and strong ties to their real homes and the communities they now inhabit. If… Read more »
Is this speech past it’s “sell by date”?. I mean the IDA have been tapping the rich vein of the irish diaspora in America for the past two decades now. Only a charity disposition will bring them here when costs exceed Switzerland as a country in which to live ,work, and do business. The corporate tax free status (almost) benefit, is undergoing steady erosion, as this government operate the only way they have ever known -waste, profligacy, re-election priming of sectional interests, pumping up the cost of living and general taxation (both direct and indirect) and gorging themselves and their… Read more »
Is there a disadvantage to the other political parties should FF open the ex-pats to the Irish ballot box.
In other words why now, why not in 1932 or any of the other two’s when they were in power for that matter, a f****d up economy is hardly a new thing for us in all honesty.
But surely any outside vote would split more or less as the parties split now. Anyhoos, it would be lovely to see the projected breakdown of the new-Irish vote and how it would match that of the ex-Pat.
“The winners will be those countries which have access to the best brains, are open to ideas and which allow individuals to travel freely.”…Yes – Fully agree – which is why the US works so well – and will continue to do so. Opportunity and ability to harvest that opportunity are key elements. I also agree with the idea that nationhood is becoming a thing of the past as are (in my opinion) the associated structures of government and associated public services. Fundamentally, Europe is just making a big version of this and it too could crumble – were it… Read more »
The article’s references to Ireland in the context of the Internet and post-nationalism rang a bell. See my article published recently in the online journal Postcolonial Text:
http://postcolonial.org/index.php/pct/article/viewFile/713/483
I agree full with fergus mclellan’s posting, i believe ireland should un entagle itself from the european project which is moving east in terms of influence and finance, we have little cultural connections with mainland europe and have failed to learn european languages, where are people going to now that the recession is hitting here, to america and australia as usual, in fact there are way more illegal irish working in america and australia than legal working in germany or france even though legally irish people are allowed stay and work in europe for as long as they want. Supporters… Read more »
The comparisons of the Irish disapora to the Jewish diaspora are really quite interesting. When you consider the high-tech nature of the Isreali siege economoy Ireland plc could learn lots of lessons – for a start we know longer have an economy under constant threat of war and should now be reaping the peace dividend in spades. That’s why No to Lisbon was the right thing to do. The key three principles though for maintianing global competiveness are Tax, Tax and erm Tax. Corporation Tax that is. Bigging up Ireland as a low-tax, hyper tech location in which to site… Read more »
To Paul O’Brien: That link was most interesting. In a nutshell (as far as my little mind can take it) – The future is the internet (web 2 etc.), we all have to go virtual…but initially we need to ensure we spread ourselves over the net in a manner than cannot be easily disrupted by nation states or corporations – to retain our sense of virtual identity and the basis of teaming with others. The Diaspora has to be pulled in to make this resilient and faciliate a tradition (initially at least) which can evolve to a new concept of… Read more »
The only thing we have in common with 4×2’s is the notion that God left us a little country in adverse conditions in the bible. That and being made feel guilty by your overbearing ma. We don’t bother with mainland Europe because the way we are taught languages is along the same lines that Christianity is taught in Guantanamo bay. Our education system was completely taken over by a nationalist agenda and just look at the abject failure of teaching our OWN language for over 80 years to see how bad we are at other languages. I think that a… Read more »
This is brilliant! Finally we don’t have to worry that our identity is going down the drain. Friends of mine in the States will be delighted! Just one point to mention though………………. The vast majority of Brits who have Irish Descent reject it completely and show nothing but shame for it or even worse tarnish it. (Regardless of Generations*) I lived in the UK for 20 years and can mention that alot of bad school kids whom I had the displeasure of being with, later ended up in Jail…….. and most had Irish Surnames. They gave me a terrible time… Read more »
It is great having an open mind Taoiseach. We, the Irish Tribe all arround the world, love our Irish roots and heritage. But, please, remember, that all of us are equal. An Irish Argentinian should be treated as well and as good as an Irish American. You know during the Diaspora, five countries received the Irish people: Canada, USA, S.Africa, Australia and Argentina. Argentina was the only non English spoken country that received so many Irish. Argentina was also the first Latin American country to recognice the Republic of Ireland and to settle an Embassy more than 55 years ago.
B, point noted and most would agree I think. The question is how to navigate out of this mess. That is the subtlety in the diaspora message I am trying to grasp. And I think O’Brien’s paper on the matter gives a rationale of why we are here and maybe a concrete way forward with due caution on the environment as it exists now. Yes, the paddies can be idiotically fickle and mindless…but when you were always minding some elses farm, would you blame them? Maybe the idea of a nation state for the Irish needs to be challenged seriously.… Read more »
Philip, We haven’t minded anyone elses farm for nearly 100 years. I wouldn’t go out and blame the Brits again for Paddys fecklessness. I would blame the lack of education given by the state. If it wasn’t propoganda, religion or Irish it was unpatriotic. We forced half a million half educated people into poverty in England while we were in the dark ages under Dev. We are still living under their small minded parochial mindset. My father was forced to England as a child and to this day I don’t know why he came back. This is the second generation… Read more »
The first thing he can do is to give me back my vote.
It is criminal that just because I am out of the country, I lose my right to vote. Along with Denmark, we are the only EU country to disenfranchise its citizens like this.
Give back the right to vote to Irish-born people, and you will immediately see an increase in so called “ownership” and stake in their country of origin.
Until an Irish politician starts to do this, then anything they say is just hot air.
Me thinks that Biffo is only embracing the diaspora because he has run out of any other plausable future policies.His predecessor spotted a niche market realty, not reality, Clearly this never provides long term economic stability, so he managed to turn our nation into feckless amateur property speculators.We have now become a nation of property spivs, trying to offload dodgy builds in the Balkans et al. Job creation via manufacturing, services etc provided by real entrepeneurs does provide long term economic stability but his party have gone to great lengths to stifle this with layers of bureracracy.No entrepeneur in his/her… Read more »
I have older brothers who feel no connection with Ireland what so ever, they were forced to leave in the 80’s, and have never come back. They live happy lives in the UK and Spain. One is a Doctor, the other has his own business in Barcelona. They will quite happily come here on holidays, but that is as far as it goes, and I am sure they are not alone with these feelings. My brother in Barcelona, says he could not possibly live here, and would not move his business here. his memories of Ireland are ones of a… Read more »
Why should any person who permanently resides outside the country have any say in how the country is run? Utter nonsense. If you don’t pay tax here you should have no say on how it’s to be raised and on how it’s to be spent, which, at the end of the day, is what you’re supposed to be voting for. Stuff like that reminds me of the rash of articles from a few years ago, where emigrants who had shagged off when times were bad (the vast majority didn’t send a brass tack home), had come home when things picked… Read more »
I have read the comments since my last posting and I suggest the following:- The ultimate low budget electronic voting system is at our fingertips!!! Grant ALL irish descendants an equal vote over the WWW on significant issues – regardless of current location / race /colour /creed. Create the club. Ireland have been at the forefront of a number of high publicity “firsts” in the last 20 years…and we have all benefitted and felt PROUD. The mere mooting of this www voting proposal by our government will send a shockwave around political circles worldwide. Give the diaspora a current reason… Read more »
By the way Dealga…the people who don’t pay tax here already have a HUGE say in how the country is run (any tax-wise rich guy is a minimal tax payer and a big political funder).
Paul – you touched a chord with your family’s experiences. Mine are very similar but that is no reason that we can’t be innovative and seek to improve. The club won’t necessarily call for all folk to return..different folk can operate at different levels.
Peter/Philip – you guys are just plain negative – enjoy the Smithwick’s.
Dealga: I found your comments very insulting: “The massive increase in kids attending gaelscoils just so they don’t have to mix with immigrants (be it for xenophobic reasons or a fear about little Johnny’s education – the result is still bad for society as a whole)”… First, it is disgraceful that an Irish poster begrudges parents who wish their children to learn the ancient language of our country. Only the Irish produce begrudgers like you, Dealga, people who put foreign migrant workers before our native language. Where do you get your prejudices from, Dealga? What kind of research did you… Read more »
fergus mclellan said, “The ultimate low budget electronic voting system is at our fingertips!!!” But that’s even more susceptible to fraud than postal voting. You must have a foolproof electronic id system to make it possible for each ‘authentic’ Irish person to have just one vote. Including diaspora Irish in the electorate could be quite a money raiser. One of the fastest growing parts of the web is genealogical research. The govmint could raise a lot of money by offering to authenticate genealogical claims with a Diaspora Passport, for which they would charge say 500 euro. It would also provide… Read more »
Positive thinking Malcolm. I think the fraud issue can be overcome. I think it should be offered on a no fee basis …in order to build up the database – and to be egalitarian in nature. Discreet advertising will fund. I think it will mark Ireland as a cutting edge democracy aswell as a user of available technology…in addition to swelling our ranks. It’s a social revolution. A bit scary for institutionalised polictics and boundary hugging technocrats. Differences between you and me are only minor quibbles. It’s an exciting proposition. Significant voting events need to be a feature in order… Read more »
Fianna Failure have no history of reaching out to the diaspora. My great grandfather was threatened with his own murder by them in the 1920s if he didn’t leave Ireland. He had joined the army at the time it was the British army but was based in the Curragh. He got thrown out. My own father lost his father at age 8 and he had the stark choice of a lifetime of poverty in Ireland or education and a new life in the UK. I don’t see how Cowan and that hatchet faced closet nun Hanifin will let anyone back… Read more »
Ah wonderful, one of Mr Cowan’s advisor’s has finally read your Generation Game !. So our councilors on their €33,000. plus packages will now all be heading off this autumn to shake the hands of our forgotten cousins , and then things will be all right here again . Truth is the Paddies wandering around temple bar and Dublin 4 , who have all soaked up the Government spin that we have been getting for the last few years have to wake up and see what is actually happening on this little island of ours today,we hadn’t a great Celtic… Read more »
Answer me this me McWilliams- what makes you and your fellow arrogant snobby globalist elitist business class think that the nation state is a “thing of the past”, given that the number of nations in the world is rising everyday (consider Kosovo recently). Also with the rejection of the lisbon treaty- the Irish people have made it clear that they are sick of both sides of the globalist coin- be it at the EU level or Americanization and globalism. I like many of other young people in their 20s are sick of how this country is been diluted and destroyed… Read more »
David S, think that horse has already bolted, mate.
Wow…David S. !!!!! You are proof that the “no” lobby also includes some loony elements. You’d have us all eatings shpuds ‘n drinking porter. Well if it was good enough for your grandfather (or Sean Leamas) it’s good enough for you – right ? You are entitled to your opinion tho’. But that’s about all you will have …an opinion …oh.. and an economy of peasant countrymen tooled up with medieval shpud digging devices. You just sit ‘n groan buddy while the rest of us finance your retirement and social services and secure your kids future. By the way perhaps… Read more »
fergus mclellan you sound like a yank- where does Al Quaeda come into this? Thats another problem with the intolerant New World Order bigots like you- getting countries involved that don’t affect their direct interests (you never heard of non-interentionism and nation-first war policy). As for spuds/porter and medieval agriculture- what a lame attack on my argument. I never said that people should eat or drink spuds or porter- nobody in this day and age has to go back to the old diet because there is enough money for modern frozen food for everybody. As for your attack on “peasant… Read more »
David S, you are only a kid, trust me, by the time you are in your 30’s you will have become everything you are currently rebelling against. Besides, no one ever listens to what 20yr olds have to say with any seriousness, because they have little knowledge of what they are on about, I know it is not a nice thing to say, but we all went through it. You are right about the “dipsticks”, but even the people who vote for them know that they are useless.
Oh I see lads- you can’t win the argument by saying argument is loony and for thatch cottage peasants- so now your resorting to the “young people rebelling” argument. Paul i’ll happen to let you know that i’m currently hoping to study history and political science soon- and love my history and politics (don’t worry i’ll always be an ordinary person- not like the west brit toffee nosed students which you’ll probably produce. If making an argument against globalism is just “youth rebellion”- why have you never heard of a 125 year old by the name of Eamon De Valera?… Read more »
I don’t agree with everything the poster David S said, but he’s dead on about Mass Immigration.
It’s been a disaster for Ireland.
And now we are faced with the spectre of Immigration coexisting with Emigration.
In other words, young Irish people are leaving Irealnd, while young Indians, Bosnians, Pakis etc. are arriving.
It’s madness! In a few decades there’ll be no Irish nation to argue over.
From the article … “Sarkozy was like a ‘top-down’ relic in a ‘bottom-up’ world, talking about relationships between states and using expression like ‘‘vital national interests’’. He spoke of European visions, as if we were still in the Cold War. This is one of the problems with the EU. It is dominated by people whose view of the world has not changed since the Treaty of Versailles and who appear to see power as something for countries to fight over. But power has been disseminated. The small are rich, the big are poor. Those with soft power are thriving, those… Read more »
I’ll leave one more comment for today- so as others can post their comments. People who believe in all of this end-of-history, neocon, globalist nonsense are severly deluded individuals who need to take their heads out of the sand. It seems that everybody who is pro-globalism and neoconservatism seems to think that any form of opposition to their Thatcherite form of conservatism is either “liberal” or naive. These immature fools running the game are just that- have you never heard of Traditional conservatism, which people like Putin are hammering back into Russia- whether or not the global elite like it… Read more »
David S, I am not a “yank”. I am from Tipp. But that shouldn’t matter. You sound like a zenophobe – but you should grow out of that. I used to think Ireland was great too , until I traveled and worked and lived. Now I realise that Ireland’s greatness is in it’s small size & adaptability…. this discussion is about rounding of our weakness – our influence due to our small size. You have a huge gap in your knowledge about economics that you need to bridge. International trade and specialisation work ! Free market economics work ! Whilst… Read more »
Also don’t forget the programme made by RTE with presenter George Lee on peak oil- isnt it time now more than ever that we become self sufficient, and rely less on some silly notion of a global nation. Also with peak oil to be reached soon airplane and shiping will be more expensive- which may make people from America, not least Australia think twice about coming to Ireland. And from what i’ve been reading- life after peak oil could turn vicious- if not between America, Russia and China. Self sufficiency now- no false dreams.
David S… really – you should quit it. Your comments are cringeworthy. You just sound fearful and negative. The world and commerce will survive and boom again, and sustain us and future generations. It will sustain some better than others – but that is the modern day equivalent of hunt & gather , survival and evolution. Hey – I’m not particularly good at it but I recognise this reality. The better we get together as a team the better we will do – that is why there is a huge advantage to being an easily manouverable adaptable economy. And the… Read more »
David S, despite enjoying your last post, you seem to come across just the same as some barstool republican, obsessed with “brits”, I can never understand why people waste so much time and effort focussing on this subject. Why does everything on this island always come down to “dem Brits”. It is laughable, we would blame them for the bad weather if we could get away with it, but on a more serious note, despite all your fancy quotes and notions, have you ever thought about Irish societies lack of accountability, no one seems to be responsible for anything, no… Read more »
I see all the media are obsessed with Lidl and Aldi and the difference in price between their irish and european shopping basket(almost 59%)
This is an efficient barometer of the devalued irish euro if ever there was one.Remember the McDonalds burger price the Economist used to gauge the level of imbalance between world currencies.!
Lidl and Aldi, being international could replace this accurate if basic tool (the McDonald burger price)to measure imbalance between parts of the Eurozone.
I did this survey about 4 years ago.Nothing has changed since. If anything the price disparities have worsened http://www.soldiersofdestiny.org/lidlpricecheck.htm
Paul I never said anything about England- west brits is merely a term for snobs who go around acting like the royal family- when I mentioned the term I hadn’t actually got England or Britain in mind. I have relatives in England- and my great-great grandfather came to Ireland after the Highland clearances in the 1850s. In fact what you fail to mention is that the Scots and Welsh put as much blame on the English for their problems- and celebrate when England lose in football or rugby matches. I hate the condescending arrogant D4 twits like Bob Geldof who… Read more »
Daithi S….a chara De Valera, Lemass and Lynch…the best years we ever had ?????. You must be joking. Post catholic Ireland has been the best years we have every had (the last 15). You didn’t live under any of these governments — so what would you know ?? Your comments remind me of some of the craw thumping bigots who skewed history lessons for us in school. Nobody is arguing that oil shouldn’t be substitued with a cleaner more economical/renewable alternative. The best route to finding that product is by free market economics, science and maybe a helping hand from… Read more »
Before we all scourge David S for his suggestion and call him immature, I believe the point he tries to make is valid, albeit it with a misguided delivery. I think what he is trying to say is that no longer can we be dependent on large scale multinational mass employers enticed in by the mantra of grants, low CT rates and an educated workforce, these are no longer innovative, and all of which can and are being replicated by all countries east of us, who have the additional advantage of large populous centres and lower costs bases-transport, labour etc.… Read more »
David, Fergus relax you two. We do need the Irish Diaspora, alot of them would be expatriates wanting to come home. Also we’d benefit from long deceased countrymen whose descendants feel greatly attached to this country and want to contribute. Ireland only ever got off the ground because many Irish-Americans realised our potential as “The Atlantic Crosssing” base, they also wanted to give opportunities and hope that their forebears were robbed of. DeValera was a good leader to this country and kept the country running when there was the “Great Depression” and “World War 2″…………… it was widely revered for… Read more »
Thank you Joe- that is exactly the point I was trying to get across. I’m not very good at getting my point across in debates lol. And your ideas on local, small and medium businesses and a return to a pre-Americanised self-sufficient Ireland are spot on, and they are exactly what I was tryihg to say. And your right on the technology front- by self-sufficiency I would never mean or advocate knitting clothes, making poitin or home made bread as a replacement for the current system- by been self-sufficient we should make such things as computer parts, airplane parts, create… Read more »
lol Observer I too have Norman ancestry- don’t ask me how my family know this. Probably about 80% of me is Celt/Scot/Gael and the other percentage Norman. I have relatives that came from North Galway, Westmeath, and Bandon, Cork- I think the Cork part of my family has Norman descent. But i’m not really sure if you could consider them French as they we’re originally Vikings from Scandanavia- and the Normans that landed in 1171 where alreading in Britain for 5 generations (105 years) so they would have inter-mingled even more with the native Celtic/Saxon peoples. But then again its… Read more »