One of the funniest afternoons I’ve had in years was going on the lash with Wayne Rooney’s granny a few years back in Croxteth, Liverpool.
Croxteth is almost all Irish. These are the Liverpool Irish — the Irish of Paul McCartney, John Lennon and George Harrison — the people whose people first lived in Scottie Road and then were moved out to new suburbs after the Second World War. Just to get a sense of how Irish ‘Scottie Road’, or Scotland Road in Liverpool, actually was, consider this: the electoral area known as Scotland Road returned an Irish nationalist MP to Westminster in every election from 1885 to 1929.
I sat in the back of a pub with Rooney’s granny, Patricia Fitzsimons, listening to stories about these people — our people — and their love of, and affinity for, Ireland. Rooney’s grandparents went to Bray for their honeymoon and constantly referred to themselves as Irish.
Knocking back gin and bitter and glued to the afternoon racing, she introduced me to all classes of Murphys, Carraghers and McManamens — the Liverpool Irish.
On their terrace of 10 houses, eight went to Mass in the local church and the father of Wayne’s wife Colleen is a minister of the Eucharist at the same church. Rooney and all the other lads in the area went to the De La Salle Brothers across the road.
While chatting, I thought of the name of the pub, the ‘Western Approaches’. Where had I heard this name before?
Somewhere in the back of my mind, this name signified something but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it.
In fact, the Western Approaches was where my grandfather’s brother had been torpedoed in the Second World War. The British Navy referred to the North Atlantic as the Western Approaches.
He, like many thousands of other Irishmen, fought in the war against the Nazis. He died — hopefully quickly — in the icy waters of the North Atlantic, as did so many of our grandparents, great uncles and relations.
I have no idea what he thought of the new Free State in Ireland — all I know is that he needed a job and got one in the British Navy.
My Dad also told me that most of the money in Dalkey during the war and up to the 1950s came from RAF pay cheques because most of the fathers were working in England, either in the army or in the arms industry in the midlands.
My mum also told me about the ‘Dagenham Yanks’ in Cork during the 1950s. These were local lads who had emigrated to England and worked in the Ford plant in Dagenham.
They came home to Cork with full wallets, swanky shoes, mohair suits and hair slicked back — looking for all the world like members of the Brat Pack. Hence the name Yanks — the Dagenham Yanks.
They — like 500,000 other Irish people — emigrated to England in the 1950s, when England signified opportunity, money and work. Their sons contributed enormously to English popular culture. Think Johnny Rotten, Morrissey and Johnny Marr of the Smiths and the Gallagher brothers. And from British comedy, what about the likes of Steve Coogan and Neil Morrissey?
AND of course, their sons also came back to play for Jack Charlton’s Ireland — the likes of Kevin Sheedy, Tony Galvin, Andy Townsend and John Aldridge, creating the most successful Irish soccer team ever.
These people are the demographic echo of the Irish who left and they are part of the story which bonds our countries together.
The number of Irish people in England is startling.
In the last census, six million people in England claimed to have Irish grandparents. This means that there are more English people with Irish grandparents then there are Irish people with Irish grandparents.
According to official sources, 900,000 people in London are described as ‘ethnic Irish” — being born on this island. This means there are more Irish people living in London than there are in the cities of Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Kilkenny put together.
And while many of us might be aware that the Irish are the biggest ethnic minority in England, did you know that the English are the biggest ethnic minority in Ireland, more than the Poles, Lithuanians or Nigerians — the people the PC brigade refer to as the ‘New Irish’. Well it seems that the real New Irish are actually English.
Economically, after 40 years of economic union with the EU, on a country-by-country basis, Britain is still by far Ireland’s single biggest trading partner.
In the past two years, thousands of Irish people have again emigrated to London, as I did in the early 1990s. In fact, my generation is the first Irish generation to have emigrated twice.
We went in the later 1980s and early 1990s, came home and many have gone again. At an age when we thought we should be settling down properly, we are off (resignedly) again. And in the main, we are going back to London.
On the day of the queen’s visit, I think it is important to remember that what binds Ireland and Britain together is people — our people and their people. We are joined together, prisoners of both history and geography, convulsed by what could be described as the narcissism of small differences.
Don’t get me wrong, like many people I believe the idea of a monarch is bizarre. The notion of a royal family owning large tracts of Cornwall is ludicrous and for all its defects, I would far prefer to be a citizen than a subject.
That said, we have everything to gain — financially, emotionally and psychologically — from a normal official relationship with Britain. No one is asking us to forget our past.
But our past, the past of the average person is not just about flags, symbols and historic dates, its about Patricia Fitzsimons in Croxteth, Stephen Morrissey in Manchester, Johnny Lydon in Finsbury Park and my own great uncle, killed by a U-boat somewhere in the North Atlantic, defending that area known as the Western Approaches.
subscribe.
Interestingly enough, Tony Blair’s mother came from Doengal. George Osborne has a grandparent from Ireland. And the list goes on. Ireland gets more respect from Britain, at the top, than we probably get from any other of our ‘partners’ in the EU. This is visible in the recent negotiations with the IMF, when Cowen went to Osborne looking for help one month before he went anywhere else. We get real respect, not condescension or patronizing rubbish like we got when we were told that we gave the wrong vote in Lisbon 1.0. However, we still have hundreds of people assembling… Read more »
It is not privelege in England that is our problem, but privelege in Ireland. That has been the case since independence. Any force that ever emerged to advocate meritocracy or institutional accountability has been systematically undermined and shafted.
That is how Ireland is persistently an underperformer.
Behaviour breeds results. Change your behaviour, and you change the results. If your behaviour gives you steadily more independence, then you will be less dependent on the corruptions of the system. It is the hard tough way, but it is the way to a morally better Ireland.
Great article, there’s not a family in Ireland that doesn’t have a tie in somehow with the UK. Its great Queen Elizabeth 11 has come with the hand of peace cementing our relationship. As an elderly person outside of her role as queen and monarch, what a great person with that resilience and fitness and alert assiduousness to attend so many events and meet/greet so many people. She told Philip not to use his pen but the TCD one provided to sign the visitors book. What an amazing life experience she’s had. Good speech this evening as well, bow to… Read more »
There are two soccer players on the starting 11 English national team. And yet our bravado element seems to think that it patriotic to be cheering Mongolia or whoever else are playing them. Missing the point, surely ? The most intellectually clueless of our countrymen and women, are those with the most fixedly irrational and idiotic concept of what defines Irish patriotism. And also they are the most dangerous. Heavy boozing. Fighting following heavy boozing. Spending in such a manner as to have other people talking. Followed by affirmations that we are better spenders than the Germans. Followed by the… Read more »
In the last article I referred to my seven years in the UK ’85 to ’92. I shall be forever grateful to the Britain for the breaks afforded me there. Challenges, training and promotion. They were not so much interested in my address (which most certainly had been held against me here at the time), my hobbies nor indeed my politics. They were most interested in my ability to do the job and were most generous in promoting and rewarding me for same. In those days I used to go mass. Even Catholicism was far more egalitarian over there. Free… Read more »
Apparently Queen Elizabeth II has offered her deep sympathy to everyone who has suffered in centuries of conflict between Britain and Ireland but forgot to mention the people currently being murdrerd in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan & Libya in her current colonial blood for oil plunder & wars.
Good article,the workers of Ireland & Uk could achieve a lot together if they could throw off the bloodsucking parasite bankers, monarchs etc.
One sentence on European nobility in general, it is a relict, and considering the history of the entire European nobility, and questioning from here whether the visitation of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha at this particular point in time, ops, pardon me, I nearly forgot the German 1918 Revolution, from the House of Windsor of course, is more than what it is published to be is a matter of personal opinion, I shared my own before and shall leave it at that. On the other hand, any reconciliation process is so very welcomed in deed, and one can not… Read more »
Look, if you all hark back to a game of football between the Republic of Ireland and Uruguay in 1986 in front of 14,000 real football fans you might remember it was a 1-1 draw.More interestingly I think it was the second game in charge for another Irish hero named Jack Charlton.Oh shit, I forgot he was an Englishman.Not to worry.Well if this was a classic example of someone making you believe in yourself and playing to your strengths.He inherited a team from his predecessor Eoin Hand and supplied the missing ingredient, “yes we can”, long before Barack Obama coined… Read more »
The Irish….. a great bunch of lads
An enjoyable read
On the corner is a banker with a motorcar
The little children laugh at him behind his back
And the banker never wears a mac
In the pouring rain…
Very strange
Be nice if we could respect our fellow Irish citizens who happen to live abroad by recognising their right to vote. We’re the only nation in Europe that does not provide an ability for overseas citizens to vote. Heck, if you book a holiday and an election is called you can’t even vote.
That’s a fine essay you’ve written there David. One small comment. It’s a pity you didn’t mention Mick McCarthy when listing sons of emigrants who went on to wear the green jersey. Mick was first generation Irish, his father having emigrated from Waterford in the 50s to get work. I never saw a more brave of more committed player play for Ireland, despite his limitations. Only Kevin Kilbane compares in that regard. Even as a player, he was subjected to a lot of abuse from Dunphy and others, who always had a preference for the native options at centre-back –… Read more »
Here are some excerpts concerning economic commentary that are Austrian in nature. (based on Menger’s theory of price, and Hayek’s theories about the politicians misallocating resources in the economic cycle). China is making it’s intentions known concerning financial leadership in the world. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-candidates-enter-imf-leadership-race-2011-05-19 Jim Chanos, a NYC based short seller, who has a lot of Austrian-like theories concerning price reckons that the boom cannot get much boomier in China. Chanos reckons that Australia will get hit hard from this. As you can imagine Chanos is not exactly popular with either the banks or the governing politicians in Australia, at the… Read more »
It’s quite fascinating just how many of the British political elite have some sort of Irish roots. As well as Tony Blair, two big names in the Labour Party , Dennis Healey and James Callaghan have roots in Ireland.
Healey , via his paternal grandfather (from Enniskillen) , and Callaghan from his father.
There are so many of them , its worthy of an entire article. Maybe somebody could post a blogpost about this perhaps?
Agree 100% with the sentiments of this piece, have been preaching it for years. Enough of hate, enough of bile; I have no truck with royalty of any description (not even its modern manifestation in the entertainments industries), nor with aristocracy ecclesiastical or civil, but the English are our best friends on this side of the Atlantic, better even than the Scots or Welsh. We should embrace them.
Good article and nice to see mature approach to the relationship between the two countries. For what it’s worth I feel we have much larger fish to fry and enemies of the state to tackle that are home grown, besides worrying about the symbolic value of a visit here by the queen of England. Why is there no sustained protest against the continuing freedoms experienced by Fitzpatrick, Drumm, Ahern, Cowen, McCreavey etc etc. Why no protest at the continued rape of the remains of this country by the public sector and their Mafioso unions? The latest example being Cork Count… Read more »
Jimmy Greaves, Ray Clemence, Kevin Keegan ,Andy Carrroll, Henry Cooper complete the Irish link.Pity Robbie Fowler and Carra didn’t declare for Ireland !
Any sign of Seanie and Fingers ? I saw the latter @ the Monaco Grand Prix 2 yrs ago.
David’s great uncle wouldn’t have suffered much, if the Cruel Sea is anything to go by. In the freezing cold waters you grow numb and sleepy very quickly. OT but the reference to Rooney’s granny reminds me of an old edition of You’re On Setanta Sport where the Boy Rooney demonstrates the pronunciation of the words “snared” and “tracking back”. (a-snyeeeeeeeaarrrrd, traaacchhkin’ baaaahchk) Which reminds me. My son has turned 10 and still has an English accent – strange seeing as he’s never set foot there (unless you count four days in Wales). But on the other hand I’ve started… Read more »
The visit of the reigning monarch of our closest neighbour isn’t merely symbolic, although that aspect of her coming here is perhaps most significant. Given the history between our two countries it is particularly important that a gesture towards recognition of past crimes, and regret for same, be made by a figure of sufficient authority from the British establishment. If the Queen’s visit manages to go some way towards closing those wounds then it will have served some very useful purpose beyond the usual PR overtones such events entail. I’m certainly no advocate of monarchies and wonder at the logic… Read more »
In case I hadn’t mentioned it in an earlier post I would like to draw your attention to the upcoming millenium anniversary of our own member of royalty, one Brian Boru,the last High King of Ireland, who perished at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014.Surely the Irish Tourist Board could make a meal out of this one in light of the focus on roylaty this week. I believe City Hall is bedecked with some fine illustrations of this Battle and coupled with the fine castle in Clontarf and Brian Boru’s Well which is, if I’m not mistaken, opposite Gerry Ryan’s… Read more »
Off Topic, but we need to remain vigilant. Why? Because while Garrett Fitzgerald’s passing and the Queen’s visit and Obama’s upcoming visit is dominating the headlines, Frank Daly of NAMA slipped in almost unnoticed under the radar to call the bottom of the market on the radio. Daly, of course, is an insider and wants to see property here returning to unsustainable levels lacking in affordability. “The speeches from both NAMA bosses made clear that the agency is seeing “tentative evidence to suggest that we may be close to the bottom of the cycle in Ireland”.” http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=2782969 Daly, you’re a… Read more »
Richard Downes did a good job here on David Drumm and Sean Dunne, about 16 mins in http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1098604 Dunne has 350 ml loans in Nama but developing with lots of cash in Cape Cod. Dunne is fighting bankruptcy and has a good chance of coming out of it well in spite of owing millions to Anglo; his method is to transfer money to Trust owned by himself and wife, wife pays him out of it and Trust is used to buy property. Drumm’s major client in US is John McGrail, owner of the property group, the Mayo group, millions of… Read more »
In Rome it was just Nero fiddling as the empire fell, here, whole orchestras of fiddlers. And all in harmony, even yet.
NAMA – the latest stunt. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0520/1224297356422.html I want to know what happened to the free market advocates in this country, you know the ones who regard any state led effort at market manipulation/price setting as an intrusion of the rights of the ordinary citizens ? What happend to Charlie McCreevy, Ulick McEvaddy, Mama Harney, Dan McLaughlin, etc…. ? No comment to make about this market interfering gimick. I reckon that NAMA are running out of tricks – and are having to settle for the blatently obvious. We also have locally autorities charging exhorbitant commercial rates, and using the money to… Read more »
European Obscenities 2010, in million euro
Alfredo Sanaz Abad – Banco Santander – E 11,8
Michael F. Geoghegan – HSBC – E 9,3
Brady Dougan – Credit Suisse – E 8,87
Josef Ackermann – Deutsche Bank – E 8,83
A contrary view. I suspect most here will never have read (or even heard of?) Douglas Hyde’s famous address from 1892. I suspect David has read it – if he hasn’t then he has noticed coincidentally a few things that Hyde also noticed, and not many others seem to have. Hyde has always been a favourite of mine. Here’s one sentence that catches the eye: “A lady in Boston said to me that the Irish immigrants had become Americanised on the journey out before ever they landed at Castle Gardens.” http://www.gaeilge.org/deanglicising.html It is only a short piece but here’s a… Read more »
Exchanging one fraud for the next:
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/green-ifsc-business-plan-is-finally-ready-for-vetting-2653744.html
Apres Extravaganza It has been an eventful week for Ireland on international stage and the revived pulsating rhytm has awakened once more in our national genes.This is positive energy that I hope will riverbrate throughout the sovereign grid in our beautiful island.Like any good farmer the opportunity must be seen to benefit the labour that toils the land / factor of production and be shared without segregation among all the citizens.It is at this moment we all must be seen to be involved from the top down if not the weak will become weaker and the new leadership in politics… Read more »
I’m tired of watching this snivelling display of Irish two-facedness this week.First Jedward, then the Queen and yet to come Obama. Talk about missing the issues! David McW…are you not the one that talks about the typical front room which was retained for impressing the visitors/neighbours? is that not what happened this week on a national level? I I looked at the international media El Pais ( Spain ) and Folha ( SP – Brasil ) for example I couldn’t help but notice that the recent bailout was mentioned in both in close proximity to the size and cost of… Read more »
From the Irish times today;
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0521/breaking3.html
Those links above again;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/may/20/spain-cuts-protesters-election-video
You can se how organised the demo is with people orgaised to clean up and donated food being shared out.
and photos;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2011/may/20/spain-protest?INTCMP=SRCH
The successful visit of the Queen, the death of Garrett Fitzgerald, and Obama’s ancestral homage remind us, as usual of Shakespeare’s insights:
Brutus:
There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.
Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218—224
Our government must act swiftly to consolidate these gains in the national psyche.
Further links from El Pais ( in spanish )
‘Drums of Resistance’
http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2011/05/21/actualidad/1306012807_153783.html
A succession of people speak of why they are there and their concern for their future and that of their kids.
Polird Project
http://www.elpais.com/fotogaleria/Polaroids/%23acampadasol/elpgal/20110521elpepunac_2/Zes/1
A great representative sample of polaroids with messages written by the persons in them.
One comment stands out for me from a Virgina Martins – “Por fin hemos desperado!” (finally we are awake!)…
personally by comparison I think we are still in a deep slumber!…
It is interesting that the royal visit happened at a time when irelands self confidence is at an all time low, and that confidence in europe and the euro is also at an all time low. I think that this is not simply a coincidence. I think britain is preparing the ground for a break up of the EU and the euro. I think it also wants to stop the scottish nationalists from breaking away from the UK, by pointing to ireland and where irish independence has led ireland, it is saying to scotland you are better off in the… Read more »
http://thechatteringmagpie14.blogspot.com/2011/05/run-to-dail.html – would appreciate any help we can get on this; share the link, join us at any stage en-route, either to march through town or run through country. We hope to have a dozen or so from the parish travel the route by minibus, with our placard, organising petition signings in each town but taking part in every march along the way.
Greece – the next step. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greece-to-immediately-sell-state-assets-2011-05-23?link=MW_latest_news Presumably, we will see the same. The problem is that the stuff that doing a lousy job and that we are better off without…the ESRI, FAS, RTE, CIE has no ready market. So the Irish taxpayer will keep paying for these wasters. And the stuff that is of value, like Coillte and the ESB will probably be the stuff that we will be instructed to sell. When it comes – the moment will be brought to you by Bertie Ahern, Patrick Neary, the Irish concept of management, and the D4 banks. And social partnership.… Read more »
[…] Fitzsimons sat at a small table in the Western Approaches pub near Scotty Road in Liverpool with economist David McWilliams. She took him through a journey of the Irish names in the area, names that were reflected in the […]