What makes a good European country? According to many of our European neighbours — specifically the French and Germans — Ireland post-Lisbon, can’t be regarded as a good member of the EU club because we are ungrateful and unpredictable.
More egregiously, the spin is that the Irish people are in someway intent on blocking enlargement. The storyline continues that, given how much we gained from the EU, how could such a nation of malcontent ingrates deprive our eastern neighbours of their opportunity?
Do you go along with that view? Certainly some of the crestfallen ‘Yes’ campaigners are using similar arguments, toeing the French line that “eaten bread is soon forgotten”. How could we possibly trouser the cash and then give them the two fingers?
It is easy to see the world this way, particularly if you regard politics as one giant inter-country game of treaties and committees. In this world view — one usually formulated by over-educated, risk-averse courtesans — people do not matter. The only thing that counts for the Eurocratic worldview is summits, leaders and the elite.
But Europe is about more than countries; it is about people. It is about 400 million individual people whose ambitions, aspirations and lives can be improved by the opportunities that economic integration affords.
If you take this people- centred view of things, it is interesting to contrast Doubting Ireland and Enthusiastic France. French politicians have conveniently forgotten that while they might hob-nob with their Polish counterparts, France does not allow Polish immigrants to work freely in France. So France talks the language of solidarity but freezes out the people that this very solidarity is supposed to help. What breathless hypocrisy!
While France threw up barriers, Ireland on the other hand opened its doors to hundreds of thousands of ordinary Poles, Lithuanians and Latvians whose lives have been greatly enhanced by the opportunities we have given them.
Ireland is a proper European partner to the Joe Soaps from Warsaw, Riga and Vilnius, while the French and Germans have closed their doors to them.
This distinction between a Europe of the peoples — the Irish view — and a Europe of the elites — the old Europe view — goes to the heart of our differing approaches.
So, for example, the French foreign minister claimed indignantly that over the 35 years of EU membership the Irish people have received €33bn in aid from the EU. This is true.
But because Ireland, unlike Germany or France, allowed the people from the accession states to come and live and work freely here, we have given back to the East in wages and opportunities.
Let’s do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let’s say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let’s say €25,000. That’s a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year.
As we are now going into our fifth year of open borders, it is likely that Ireland has put back more cash in the pockets of poor European immigrants in five years that the EU has given us in 35 years.
We have also provided an open platform for people to come and go without recourse to registering with the local authorities or without the need to be monitored by identity cards. Furthermore, the Irish Ryanair, not the EU Commission, has been the single greatest force behind actual integration, flying the poor people of the East cheaply all around the Union. We’ve yet to see a low-fares French carrier demean itself to carry ordinary citizens to work.
So, not only have we given hundreds of thousands of eastern Europeans a chance to fulfil the promise of the EU and have their children educated here, but given that the propensity to save is higher among immigrants than the rest of us, billions of euros earned in Ireland are likely to have been sent home to Eastern Europe to build opportunity there.
Only Ireland, Britain and Sweden — the three countries most regarded as sceptical on Europe — have shown real, material solidarity with the poor of Eastern Europe.
While the French, Germans and Italians might lecture others on being good Europeans, they don’t stick to the spirit of the treaties they sign.
The question then arises again: which is the better European country; the one that blocks the freedom of mobility but accords to the fine rhetoric of the ‘grand projet’, or the one that allows free movement of people but might be more quizzical about the rhetoric?
Go down to your local Spar or Centra and ask the Polish or Lithuanian working there (who would not be freely allowed to work in France or Germany) who has done more for them — France or Ireland?
Also ask them, who made xenophobia part of the last referendum? It was in France not Ireland that the anti-EU vote made a big deal of the threat of the ‘Polish Plumber’. The ever-so-European French played the race card last time they voted with the ‘Yes’ side, ensuring the ‘No’ side that a ‘Yes’ vote would keep the Poles off French building sites.
The problem for the elite is that Ireland has given back money to the EU, but just not to them. We have given the poor an opportunity to work which is precisely what an economic union is all about.
Tomorrow morning, when Brian Cowen is facing the music and feels he is dealing with a meagre hand, he should remind his tormentors, such as former communist Mr Kouchner, that Ireland has given back to European workers in wages far more than we have taken in direct subsidies. Ireland is accepting in eight times more EU immigrants per head than France.
There are many ways of looking at Europe. Some of our neighbours are ‘top down’ Europeans, pushing through treaties in parliament, not consulting their electorates. This makes them look powerful at summits.
There are others who are happy to enhance ordinary peoples’ lives but have to face the electoral music at every turn.
We are the ‘bottom-up’ Europeans — the more honest and less hypocritical EU members.
If you want to see what European integration is for ordinary people, don’t watch the pomp and ceremony of the leaders’ summit tomorrow, go to the arrivals hall at Dublin airport.
There, amid the stonewashed denims, shaved heads and East European biker jackets, you will see the true hope that Europe brings. It is a chance of a better life for the immigrants and their children. It is the chance to bring money home, to plan and to invest in the future. This is what Europe is all about.
David, I think your simple calculation of how much we have “given” the Eastern Europeans back in wages is very simplistic – and you seem to have based much of your arguement on it (that we in fact “owe” Europe nothing). Much of their income is returned into the irish economy & not taken home by them. I also doubt if wages in this country would be as high if we had shut the doors to immigration … so they could be said to have “given” alot back to us. Basically the calculation of the benefits of immigration is not… Read more »
When people are in a job for a while they tend to take a world view from that position. Here in Ireland from the earliest years, the civil service, the doctors, the lawyers and the unions, together with the farmers, banks and the Churches. All were not really living in this economy. All were looking up and feeling very hard done, but they were looking up at the UK and the US. When the Netherlands and Denmark were developing agriculture at the lower levels, where the economic unit was below twenty acres, the economic unit here was seen as above… Read more »
Very good points David, it is also fair to say that the “EU” monies we’ve received throughout the years have come from the people of Europe not the bureaucrats. The people of Europe have a right to a voice in their future and should be allowed to be heard through their own referendums.
David, I agree, we are pragmatic about the purpose of the Union and our no vote was founded on real fears about the future direction of the enterprise. The French go on about the 35 billion we received from Europe – it’s childish rhetoric when you consider that the roads it built actually served to accommodate more European made cars and trucks. A quick glance at passing traffic and you’ll see that almost half the vehicles are made in Germany – that’s not a bad deal when you add up the profit margin on these vehicles and other European products… Read more »
Good point about Ryanair being the single greatest force behind actual (European|) integration. It’s ironic, as it was probably that last thing on the minds on the French and Germans when the signed the Treaty of Rome and they’d be horrified to see such an outcome.
It’s only slightly more ironic than the fact that the EEC (as it then was) was setup largely to promote French Interests (no harm in that) but has in fact promoted the use of English (as it’s the only language that all member-states can reasonably claim to communicate it!).
Paul
Great piece. I have lived in France and always felt that the Grand École hierarchy always took an exclusively macroeconomic perspective. The conveyor belt from France’s top schools leads directly to the civil service and the giant semi-state companies. The unspoken belief is that “If we implement the right policies then France will prosper” and therefore we need our best and brightest in the public rather than the private sector. After prolonged economic underperformance this belief has transformed to “If we can curb the adverse policies of others then France will prosper”. The unspoken French objective is to curb the… Read more »
Irish people have little in common with French, Belgians’ or Germans’.Those nations have a different system of law and a different perspective on the role of the state, civil liberties etc.Euro integration has gone as far as it can involving Ireland and Britain and it remains to be seen if Eastern europe will take the Alabama or Brussels path.I reckon they will take the latter.
The above is actually a very pertinent point. I hope Cowen takes the same line and if he doesn’t we can always install the floppy haired one in his place.
Not a convincing article, Indeed it somewhat contradicts the previous “Rethinking-(return to patriotism)” post. In a commercial “Globalised” world, people are treated merely as fodder to be dealt with arbitrarily as an economy demands. To suggest that The Irish have awarded opportunities to Eastern Europeans out of their sense of Euro-community, and warmth of spirit is facile. Immigrants have been lured to Ireland merely to fill an economic gap- when it existed. The interest in their well being extended only as far as they were useful to that purpose. The economy no longer requires them, and the welcome they received,… Read more »
I think David makes fair enough points about a mobile workforce and how they have benefitted from our open doors, not to mention all the illegals we took off the hands of the Germans, Italians and French that we feed, clothe and shelter. How much money the poles send home or keep is anybody’s guess so Brendan has a point too. There has been an out of control spiral of wages and inflation here for too long, partly the fault of too much immigration. If these immigrants ever leave, half the apartment blocks in town will be empty. This will… Read more »
I voted Yes. I voted yes based on my read of the Treaty and on balance, my interpretation of what it meant in the context of the allowances being made to be more effective with an enlarged Union. The Nice treaty, once we got what we wanted based on the Seville declaration, has been measured to give 25% more efficiency in decision making. I respect the NO vote – I respect it because I can relate to people’s fears that we are perhaps moving too fast and there are times when we have to slow down and consider what next?… Read more »
David, Interesting points. Simplistic, yes as this type of dialogue has to be. But still interesting and needs further analysis. However big picture stuff is also relevant to and affects ordinary people. People who are social model orientated (meaning wanting the basic services for people to be of a good enough standard for all and accessible to all) also view big pictures. No man is an island type thing and Ireland does not nor cannot function in isolation to rest of the world. The Europe Elite versus ordinary Joe or Mary bloggs is a vast simplification also. Educated people come… Read more »
I’m not often dissappointed by David’s pieces but I am with this. The whole article is constructed around the opening statement that ‘the spin is that the Irish people are in someway intent on blocking enlargement.’ That is not the spin. It’s a spin you’ve exaggerated to suit your article. It is abundantly clear that the issues quickly became abortion, neutrality and tax with an element of tory-esque ‘sovereignty’ thrown in for good measure. Immigration and enlargement were hardly on the radar at all. The treaty, despite its complexity, was about reforming how the EU works because it can’t continue… Read more »
I’m still glad I voted No to Lisbon, if only for the view of Brian Cowen squirming. Poor guy was absolutely convinced we’d all vote Yes. Will it make the government better listen to the people in future? I doubt it.
Forgive me for being stupid but we didn’t get EU enlargement to get workers into our Spar and Centra shops. We did allow foreign workers in but put many barriers in to artifically limit their progress. I personally know a Romanian former MiG pilot working in security. From an EU country. Almost impossible to get a visa too. We have not addressed the skills gap between the natives and the immigrants. Nearly half of them have third level while only a third of us do. We are too busy in school learning Irish and Religion instead of things we can… Read more »
[…] David McWilliams on Europe. Interesting. […]
I agree with Jim that the many immigrants were asked to come and work simply because there were not enough Irish workers to fill the existing positions. In fairness, I doubt that their well-being and prosperity was on the agenda, although the welcome has been so far mostly very warm and encouraging. The argument that only UK, IE and Sweden opened their labour markets (if my reading of it is right) is not any more correct. As far as I’m aware, only Germany and Austria still have not opened their job markets in any form. Finland, Greece, Holand, Portugal and… Read more »
I thought it was an effect of public expenditure that for every euro spent, it got it several times back due to the multiplier effect ( 1 euro spent 20 times over) times the vat rate…around 3-5 Euro return. We got 30 bn to get things rolling in this place. That 30bn would have yielded a 90 to 150bn return for the local public service in vat and taxes and that is the real index we should be looking at. That money got trapped in a class of asset whose multiplier effect gets sucked out by zillionaires who made a… Read more »
Why in the name of God is anybody surprised by the No result?
If the referendum was held in any other country the result would be the same.
The reasons why we voted No don’t matter. The No result represents the will of all European people.
Really Mary Kate? Did you ask them all? Or are you just listening to the loudest voices?
It’s worth remembering that the French, in particular, rejected the constitution in protest at the prospects of Turkey being allowed into the EU
Well, we’ll never know will we?
In fact Nicolas Sarkozy said it would be “dangerous” to hold referendums.
He went on to say,
“France was just ahead of all the other countries in voting no. It would happen in all member states if they have a referendum. There is a cleavage between people and governments,”
“A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no Treaty if we had a referendum in France, which would again be followed by a referendum in the UK.”
Not surprised but to vote out of ignorance “The reasons why we voted No don’t matter.” is not good enough. The YES campaign should take responsibility for that ignorance but the reasons we voted no very seriously matter.
A very opportunistic right wing view of how things went David. You sound more and more like the FF cute hoors who run this country if you’re gonna give us stuff about bottom up Irish versus top down dirigiste French. Contrary to what Daniel says in his otherwise excellent post, immigration played a big part in the No vote, particularly in blue collar areas. Did anyone hear about the electoral box opened in Knocknaheeny on Cork’s northside that contained 600 ballot papers, 13 of them marked Yes? I expect right wingers such as Noel O Flynn to reap the dividend… Read more »
well the argument that we opened our doors to the poor eastern europeans and we are better europeans than others unfortunately is not a very well thought one. The only reason ireland kept that door because they needed cheap labout to fuel the housing scam and also use these people as tenants in those apartments they are building themselves. Most of the money they earned was spent here anyways , mostly non union workers was brought here to compete with locals. This was not done for being a good sport , it was for the elite that runs this country… Read more »
David: I like where you are going with the premise of your argument but it comes over as a little half baked in the circumstances as a result of over-simplification. I think we can take it as read that Europe “invested” in Ireland’s future to open the market rather than embarking on a 35Bn philanthropic give-away. At this stage it would also be safe to assume that we have returned the favour. Fergus makes a great point above. Ireland like most counries has a real issue when it comes to immigration. It’s nigh on impossible to have an open discussion… Read more »
Thank you all very much for the comments;positive of negative, we need to have this debate about the country, where we lie in Europe and what it means for all of us. Just a note to the critics: opening your doors is what one of the four fundamental freedoms of the EU – the freedom of mobility- is all about. Ireland, for whatever reasons, did it and many other countries did not. If you ask the average immigrant in Ireland today (no more than if you asked the average Irishman in the US in the 1980s or the UK in… Read more »
Sub
We are a country without any sense of social morality. We seem to have a mindset whose duality and is unique – a kind of pathological hypocrisy. We are Christian Mass goers and yet have no problem reconciling this with maintaining social injustice. The reason we opened the doors was to get in cheap labour. The benefit which may have accrued to the immigrants was utterly accidental. FULL STOP And by the way, these immigrants we “welcomed” in were not allowed to participate at the highest level of their education where real value could be added to the country. So… Read more »
Hear hear Phillip. A voice of reason in an ocean of bullshit.
Most posts have followed the line I mentioned yesterday….and are mostly (and rarely) against your theory in this article…We haven’t done a hoot for ordinary Europeans and never intended or intend to- Immigrants were never in Ireland to be offered a better chance in Life but were here merely to be exploited by the economy for cheap labour. The end. Now that the economy has effectively crashed (The word media word “Downturn” has already been replaced by “Crash”) The only issue on anybodys mind is how to get rid of this now useless and unwelcome foreign population fast!! – and… Read more »
Harsh words Jim. “Useless and unwelcome”. This is quite the opposite to what I come across every day, but I do appreciate the frankness. Anyway, my “insider’s” view is that many are indeed leaving (e.g Norway seems to be at the top of the list now) but in fairness many will hang on. How to get rid of them AND stay in the EU at the same time? Not easy I guess.
“I have had 1st hand experience working for French and German managers and my personal and professional development prospered tremendously. Not so with Irish managers and I know many who can report the same.” Philip, it’s the small size of our organisations and home market that causes Irish managers to be continuously in a state of panic – management by crisis. It can be good experience provided you’ve already had exposure to the objective type abroad.
Ed, What are you blathering about. It has nothing to do with the small size of the market. It has everything to do with having an unwillingness to learn. Part of what I do is help sort out companies that hit the skids. 9/10 times we find that management arrogance and not market conditions led to the company being on the ropes. Managers may be great internal politicians but this playing up to the boss and lack of humility usually takes their companies out of business. I have seen it over and over and over again. And lashing out at… Read more »
[…] was never used, is a pretty good retort to Brussels accusations of Irish ingratitude? Combined with David McWilliams’ claim that accession state immigrants wages amounted to a €7.5bn “subsidy” to the enlarged […]
B, that’s a generalisation about the Irish being lazy – I agree that immigrants are appreciative of a leg up and will make every effort to succeed – I did it myself when I was one. There are, however, lots of good hardworking Irish people out there, the problem in most small organisations is the lack of resources to develop their full potential. I’ve got one that is a natural, but we have to work within our constraints.
In general there is a lack of will. There are only three of us in the company. We were in a client site (more like the Somme) from 7pm Sunday to 4am Monday while the managers who bullshitted us about controls and targets were tucked up in their beds. Learned more about the business then than a month of meetings. We were being managed by Powerpoint so we went in to see what was really going on. To contrast most Japanese companies are small, Toyota, Honda et al are the exception to the rule. Just becasue you are small doesn’t… Read more »
Hi David, We hear your point (made here and on Sat on TV) that the French didnt allow in the eastern europeans when we did, etc, that they arent on this score as European as us – however, its not a major point to make due to the following: We all (EU-15) voted on this mechanism with Nice, that countries could allow or not allow people to move in and work. (This created a two-tier EU from that point onwards and was one of the reasons that many voted No to Nice-I and Nice-II.). Thus it was in France’s remit,… Read more »
Disney is a great place apart from all the kids College is a great place apart from all the Professors and the Students Ireland is a great place apart from all the paddies. Ditto for all the other countries and their constituencies. Business is great apart from all those effen employees and effen customers Medicine is a great profession apart from all those sick patients. Democracy is the worst form of government apart from all the others – Was that Churchhill? I forget. etc etc Time to grow up. It’s a NO – suck in and get used to it.… Read more »
I believe the no vote was simply that people really didn’t understand what it was about! The no camp had clear fear driven “sales tags”. The yes camp didn’t. Irish people are not stupid and placing an unreadable document in front of them stating “trust us” was never going to be ratified. End of Discussion!!!
We sit in a republic, and for some this means that all choice is made by a spartan elite, where the opinion of the herlot is unimportant. Sometimes we get our act together and cop on to ourselves, but history, instinct and the need for survival tend to colour all on which we think. When DeGaulle set up the French presidental election, he made sure that there was two elections, a week apart, on the principal that the French voter, will, vote in the first with his heart in the second with his head. And so it is now, few… Read more »
“Herlot” eh?
If you’re going to come over all academic, at least try to spell “helot” correctly please.
And tuck your question marks up behind the words please. Putting your comma, question mark or exclamation point out here . is just wrong.
And using an unnecessicary fullstop after a question mark is in the words of Chris Rock ig’nant.
VincentH your pompous comment was overshadowed by crappy punctuation. Maybe instead of trying to show of your middlebrow intellect you should get the basics right. Starting with punctuation.
Over and out.
I must have deleted the email but did all the other governments in Europe come to power by winning raffles or having their names pulled from hats or something? If ratifying Lisbon really bothers our European brethren so much then surely they’ll punish the guilty parties at the ballot box? We keep clapping ourselves on the back for holding a referendum. Yet the majority of eligible voters didn’t bother voting and the many voters claimed not to understand what they were voting on. Some exercise in democracy that is! At the risk of breaking Godwin’s Law I might point out… Read more »
Part, and let me add, just part of the problem with the fact that we voted NO is that of the negative it associates with us globally. I don’t agree with much of the analysis of this article, but I ACCEPT that a marketing message that illustrates us as greedy to many superficial readers (and there will be many) of articles such as this…. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/opinion/19cohen.html?_r=1&oref=slogin will be bad for business, in this case our economy, just at a time when we needed to stay in the game. This is not a reason for saying YES, but I thought we were… Read more »
Forgive me for asking but what was the Second World War for if sixty years later we reinstall Fascism?
All headscratching and “what happened, and why not and why against” The fact is Nobody on the ground knows anything about Europe and anything to do with it is treated with well advised suspicion- the Swedes were offered the vote on whether to accept the Euro (In my view the only positive thing about the EU!!) Their Govt. was for Yes, and the people decided therefore that it must be something dodgy offered by the ruling elite, and that national power and Swedish interests would be transferred to Brussels. So they voted against the adoption of the euro- while the… Read more »
Philip spot on i second you
Jim Hardy you are starting to sound like Robert Mugabe
Saying the Irish are ungrateful is completely irrelevant; it seems that the electorate in most countries would have also voted No if given the chance. The treaty itself may not be so bad, the vote is against the politicians and bureaucrats who are out of touch with the real people. And the EU grants, or whatever they are called, did NOT come from the EU or EC or beaurocrats themselves, but from other EUropeans, so those bureaucrats have no justification in moaning.
Look what happened was that we just ripped down the metaphorical jocks of the EU and exposed that they want to be a World Power and regard democracy as an inconvenience. The EU can no longer call China or Burma on democracy becasue it is not interested in the will of the people. I heard today on another blog that many people allegedly voted yes because they are sick of the shower of lowlifes we have at the moment. I would have to agree with that but do you think that Brussels is going to be any better? On the… Read more »